UPDATE: This has been changed. The current idea is that whe you surrender you will lose a certain amount of money per nevday which will be paid to the attackers, for the duration of the surrender. The sum total of income transferred will be based on both your level and your surrender rate. Surrendering at 10% will result in, for example, 1.2 billion transfered for a level 9, whereas surrendering at 50% will result in no loss of income for anyone. The actual figure will be finalized later and will be based off the average daily income for an empire of your level, being 20 real days worth of income for an average empire of your level at a 10% surrender rate, 15 days at 20%, 10 days at 30%, 5 days at 40%, and nothing at 50%. As you continue to read, replace morale with income for an accurate representation of the current proposal.
[09:08] <Randy> it will designed, presumably, to follow transfer limits (or a multiple thereof) [09:08] <Randy> in that [09:08] <Randy> a level 9 empire for example will lose enough morale to, on average, suffer $500,000,000 in lost income before it wears off [09:08] <Randy> a level 10, 1 billion [09:09] <Randy> level 6, 50 million [09:09] <Randy> you get the idea [09:09] <Randy> those numbers may be adjusted quite a lot before i'm done [09:09] <Randy> it may be several times that, or a fraction of that, it is not settled yet [09:09] <Randy> ok so you lose some absolute amount of morale [09:09] <Randy> which, when averaged, affects your income [09:10] <Randy> so the empires you surrender TO gain that morale [09:10] <Randy> let me back up a step [09:10] <Randy> when you lose the surrender rate % of your pop + bv (henceforth, SR) [09:10] <Randy> over the period (3 rl days) [09:10] <Randy> you surrender to everyone who has attacked you during that period [09:10] <Randy> excluding of course pirates and faction members [09:10] <Randy> so, when the morale gets split between the attacking empires [09:11] <Randy> say you lose 2000 absolute morale points [09:11] <Randy> and there were just 2 attackers during the last 3 rl days [09:11] <Randy> each gains 1000 morale [09:11] <Randy> if there were 50 attackers [09:11] <Randy> they each gain only 40 [09:11] <Randy> so as you can see, the rewards favor those who attack in smaller numbers [09:11] <Randy> and [09:11] <Randy> those who attack larger (or equivalent) level empires [09:11] <Randy> if your level 9 makes a level 5 surrender, well, the 50 morale you get won't mean much to you [09:12] <Randy> but if you make a 12 surrender single handedly .. well, thats a LOT of morale that will last a long long time for you [09:12] <Randy> ok, more effects [09:12] <Randy> when the surrender happens all battles the surrendering empire is in instantly stop [09:12] <Randy> defender wins all of them [09:12] <Randy> regardless of who is attacking who in each [09:12] <Randy> here is a big one too [09:13] <Randy> all zones the surrendering empire took from the attackers during the past nevyear are returned to the owner [09:13] <Randy> or rather not owner [09:13] <Randy> but the empire you took them from [09:13] <Randy> so say planck attacks DOS [09:13] <Randy> takes a lot of land/cities [09:13] <Randy> dos retakes half of them [09:13] <Randy> planck finds the army and kills a lot of mechs, DOS surrenders [09:14] <Randy> all the cities DOS re-took will revert to planck [09:14] <Randy> ok, what else [09:14] <Randy> ah, surrender period [09:15] <Randy> ok, when you surrender, all battles stop and there can be no new attacks on you or by you for 72 rl hours [09:15] <Randy> additionally [09:15] <Randy> for the next nevyear you may not attack nor be attacked by those empires that you surrendered to [09:15] <Randy> so if 10 guys attacked you during the 3 rl days before your surrender, you can't hit those 10 and they can't hit you for over a month RL [09:16] <Randy> now, after the 72 hours are up you may still attack/be attacked by OTHER empires [09:16] <Randy> so its easily possible you'll be forced into surrendering AGAIN [09:16] <Randy> at which point all the same effects happen still [09:16] <Randy> identically [09:16] <Randy> except that the lockout period is twice as long [09:17] <Randy> so if you surrender AGAIN it obviously cannot include any of the original empires [09:17] <Randy> since, obviously, no one has attacked you in the past 3 days when the first lockout period expires [09:17] <Randy> so (i hope this isn't getting too confusing) [09:18] <Randy> if you surrender within 1 nevyear of already having surrendered its exactly the same except the total-lockout (no attacks by/on you by anyone) is 6 RL days [09:18] <Randy> if it happens a THIRD time, its 12 days [09:19] <Randy> it is statistically possible to surrender a fourth time before the first period is expired, though unlikely, and if that does happen it will be, as expected, a 24 RL day lockout of all allacks [09:19] <Randy> any units in zones that have ended-battles or zones that are switched to ownership of empires you surrender to will be instantly moved back to your nearest friendly zone. [09:19] <Randy> ok i think that covers everything [09:20] <Randy> if you have questions, why don't you PM them to eggy, if you'd be so kind eggy [09:20] <Eggy-afk> oh gee thx [09:20] <Eggy-afk> :) [09:20] <Randy> and then she can copy them here [09:20] <Randy> and i'll answer 1 at a time [09:20] <Randy> hehee you're welcome :) [09:20] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> is morale calcs for surrendering based on empire level or war level of attacking/defending empires when the attacker getting morale bonuses calculating after a surrender? [09:21] <Eggy-afk> ok peeps 1 at a time pls [09:21] <Randy> it is based on empire level of the surrendering level. Morale cals for the victors is a straight up division of that amount. That is, if the defender loses 100 and there are 4 attackers, each attacker gets 25 REGARDLESS of their level or WL [09:21] <Randy> (it is not based on WL of the defender, but real level) [09:22] <Eggy-afk> <Angus_Kellie[unF]{G}> Is this replacing empire restrictions for LW? [09:22] <Randy> ahh, very good question [09:22] <Randy> YES [09:22] <Randy> the current restriction system is full of holes and loopholes and this will replace it entirely [09:22] <Eggy-afk> <Logres|work> will there be any additional research bonus for the victor? [09:23] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> is that empire level of the surrendering empire at time of surrender? [09:23] <Randy> no the bonus for the victor is 1) morale 2) his gains are "locked-in" in that there can be no direct retaliation 3) lands taken by the enemy revert to his control [09:23] <Randy> yes casper it is level at the time of surrender. [09:23] <Eggy-afk> <Krait_AFK> what about small empires that follow the recommended WW defense of having their units hidden somewhere so they dont get killed in the cities on AI? that 50% max rule sucks for that... [09:25] <Randy> it does indeed suck. If you have 1:1 pop BV and no units in cities its possible you'll lose every city you have and trigger a surrender, precluding you from retaliating. Clearly, having 1:1 bv-pop and not defending cities is now a terrible, terrible scenario for anyone. [09:25] <Eggy-afk> <Cool_Cat[STB]> are we still allowed to LW our own empires with these rules? could be seen as a way to get funds from your lower empires to your main by repeatedly causing them to surrender [09:25] <Eggy-afk> <Murray> How will this affect LT's? [09:26] <Randy> CC its still an option yes. Of course, they'd have to be outside your faction because you can't surrender to your faction. additionally, the morale is level-dependant. Surrending 1 level 6 to another level 6 might be worthwhile, but surrendering a level 4 to a level 6, the morale involved will hurt the 4 a lot more than it will help the 6. The lock-out period of 3 days is not significant [09:27] <Eggy-afk> <Donovan> won't it open easy doors for destroying an empire completely? first one or two members of an faction attacks, after the 3 days another one and so on; in the greatest timespan 24 days, it is nearly impossible to rebuild so much, to withstand any greater assault [09:29] <Randy> donovan thats correct to an extent. If you are set at 10% then no, you will only kill 1/3rd perhaps of an empire over that 48 day span before the 4th surrender happens. If its a 50% SR then yes, you can almost wipe someone out in that 48 day period [09:29] <Randy> which is fine becuase if ppl set it to 50 they want to fight, and 48 days for hurting an empire a lot is perfectly acceptable to me. [09:29] <Eggy-afk> <Eggy-afk> <Murray> How will this affect LT's? [09:30] <Randy> non-factioned LTs may well trigger a surrender if you don't plan it right. [09:30] <Randy> there will be no LT exclusion. [09:30] <Eggy-afk> <Ashen_Shugar_pirate_hunter> so, if HoC uses f.ex. CircFed to GB the hell out of a lvl 10 or 11, that empires surrenders, and then HoC can use DBF or any other faction to start another GB? [09:30] <Eggy-afk> always poor lil ole HoC :P [09:31] <Randy> correct ashen .. if you have an empire you feel is in imminent and long-term danger from one of these overgrown alliances you may want to set your SR low, particularly after the first surrender, to keep from being overly damaged 3 days later. [09:31] <Eggy-afk> <ilKhan_Fyretrohl_Taney> How do you stop the current issue of people restricting themselves? [09:31] <Randy> remember you can change your SR at any time, as often as you like. [09:32] <Randy> Good question Fyre, I would like to say "I don't think that will be a problem" but of course it will. I will probably make it painfully clear on the surrender page that self-surrndering is illegal. Let me expound a little: [09:33] <Randy> who surrenders to who, and for how long, is going to be public information. If you're looking at a restricted target you'll readily see who he surrendered to [09:33] <Randy> so it will be easy to find violators of this rule, and presumably easy to prove it [09:33] <Randy> and id necessary, punish for it [09:33] <Randy> i'm not sure if that will be necessary ... self-surrendering may not really be worth it, but if people do it and it hurts the game, I'll take action to stop it. [09:33] <Eggy-afk> <flea> I i just brought a lv 4 down to zero how would i get a surrender bonus?....he has no citys or bv. [09:34] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> what about on board hoppers: for example 2 lvl 10 empires are fighting and a lvl 5 empire takes some emmpty zones and the lvl 10 surrenders? Will morale still be split equally? [09:34] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> or the surrenderer himself throws one of his emps in to get a little of the morale [09:35] <Randy> flea he would have surrendered at level 3. remember each level is double the previous. You can never lose more than 1 level over 3 days w/out surrendering. if the war took a long time and you slowly worked him down to zero, then you would get nothing from his eventual destruction other than every last one of his cities you took. [09:36] <Randy> masashi yes that will definately happen, probably fequently. Remember the faction exclusion, so if you're jumping in to gain a piece of your friends surrender it can't be in your faction. And i would guess bandwagon-jumpers will be "discouraged" by the bigger guys in the war, and dealt with accordingly! [09:36] <Eggy-afk> <HammerBA> I was under the impression that pirate attacks were to help cut down on multiple empires and force players to take a more active role in defending their empires. So then why a surrender rule? It will be the same thing as a restriction when some of you faction mates hit you to help restrict you. [09:37] <Eggy-afk> <Sweet_`N_Innocent_Planck> 'Why can't I have the damn 100% surrender rate?' [09:38] <Randy> everyone is worried about self restriction it seems. I am hoping it won't be such a big problem because of the morale hit, people will not WANT to surrender. Its not like they can hand back the infra .. if they take it to restrict you, they'll keep it a nevyear at least. But again if this becomes such a problem that its ruining the game I will make it illegal to self-surrender or hardcode other rules preventing it [09:39] <Randy> planck, the best explanation i can give is this. You may have a great LW empire and go off taking 1 million undefended pop from people ... but those people won't neceasrrily like you and will surrender readily to the next comer if you don't defend them :P [09:40] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> so that means [NOOB]s could have a lot of fun with this new surrender thing..... and keep the undefended/purely stealthed cities [09:40] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> Q: does WW think you surrender plan sucks? [09:41] <Randy> casper please explain that a little more .. where exactly is the potential noob abuse? [09:41] <Eggy-afk> <ilKhan_Fyretrohl_Taney> What if you have both sides tearing into each other? IE: DoS and Clan Wolf are fighting, hitting each others Infra...What constitutes 50%? 50% from when I started? 50% of what I have added from taking from DoS? What is the 'starting' point? [09:42] <Randy> its a moving 3-RL day (1 nevmonth) taney. Big empires, as i said, will not surrender easily becuase of the difficulty, even impossibility, of losing 10-50% in a mere 3 days [09:42] <Eggy-afk> <Logres|work> So, "planning it right," notwithstanding, if say, a level 10 transfers 2 108k cities and has their surrender set at 10% (a large amount of BV and/or infra for higher level empires), then an aggressor could then come in, with a bit of luck take another large city and kill the defending BV, therby causing surrender by only eliminating 5% or so of the defenders BV/POP, this seems like a large loophole for "spying" e [09:43] <Randy> its not a loophole at all. If your empire has lost so much (LT or not!) your citizens will demand the loss of territory stop at any price, meaning you surrender. [09:44] <Randy> but that said, set it at 30-40% when you make that LT and it wouldn't be an issue Logres|work [09:44] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> why not split the morale proportional to what each empire destroyed in particular [09:44] <Randy> masashi the primary reason is to lower the gains from every empire involved in a large gangbang. [09:44] <Eggy-afk> <Murray> would not a loss of just a % of morale work better? [09:44] <Eggy-afk> <Murray> Example if surrender rate is 5% the surrendering empire loses 5% morale [09:45] <Randy> oh sorry i didn't understand the question [09:46] <Randy> i thought about that, although reversed what you said. That is, if you surrender easily (10%) the penalty would be harsher than if you fought as long as possible (50%) although in the end I decided I don't want to overly penalize those who set it to 10% becuase they don't have the time/interest to fight a large war. [09:46] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> i wouldn't say abuse, but if they managed to hook onto a big city, like they have been doing to some lvl 5s/6s, it could trigger a surrender, and the NOOB will get the city i suppose [09:47] <Randy> correct, if a NOOB takes 50% (or whatever) of a larger empires pop+bv and triggers a surrender, he has certainly earned it and can keep it. [09:47] <Eggy-afk> <HammerBA> If a NooB takes enough undefended POP from a level 10, and the level 10 surrenders, can the level 10 then take his stuff back without the NooB surrendering? Similar to the cost of zero to hit back after X factors are met? [09:47] <Randy> hehe i can't see a NOOB forcing a level 10 surrender but i will answer anyway :) [09:49] <Randy> no, he cannot take it back. Those empires can't fight for 1 nevyear, and so when he finally CAN counter attack its a clean slate. The auto-hand-over of formerly held territory only strecthes back that same 1 nevyear, so if the noob held it that long (1 nevyear) while the surrender expired, its his, and you won't easily get it back especially if he sets his SR at 10% [09:49] <Randy> of course, friends/faction members could take it back immediately :) [09:49] <Eggy-afk> <Huey[FC][ST]> so basically...the small empires who can not afford the outlandish mech prices, are going to take it in the shorts with this new surrender rule [09:50] <Randy> i don't really see the relation between this and the price of mechs. All empires pay equally for mechs. one level 5 doesn't have an advantage over another level 5 other than support from a strong faction, or individual merit (better empire management and/or dueling wins) [09:51] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> so with DoWs lasting 1 nevyear, that basically means, it will cos a damn hell of a lot to hit back unless you can time the retribution within 1 nevmonth of those attacks happening to you, a nevyear later? [09:52] <Eggy-afk> <casper``> (speaking about small empires making larger empires surrender) [09:52] <Randy> Very good question. That will need consideration from me certainly. I'll make it so you can DOW on anyone you surrendered to in the past 2 nevyears, giving you a full nevyear AFTER the surrender expires during which you have a DOW option. [09:54] <Randy> lest include other (well-considered) suggestions too eggy, if there are any [09:54] <Randy> *lets [09:54] <Randy> i'm feeling like this is all pretty well explained at this point. [09:54] <Eggy-afk> well there was one from Murray, who asked are you trying to drive away the old timers with all your changes? [09:55] <Randy> old timers with smaller empires must abide by the same rules as new players. Large empires, as I've said, are very unlikely to be much affected as if you set your rate to 50% if you want to up there, its impossible (virtually) to lose so much in just 3 days for a level 11+ empire [09:56] <Randy> i'd LOVE to see someone try to kill 50% of CIH in 3 days .. its just never going to happen [09:56] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> is it possible to set two values for surrender: like one for online and one for offline? cause it is a pain in the ass to change it every time you get on or get off [09:56] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> but maybe 2 values so nev changes it itself when i logon and off [09:57] <Randy> i think that can be easily handled yourself masashi. If you want it 10% when you're not logged in (which may become commonplace) leave it at 10%. If you happen to be online when attacked you can change it then to 50% or whatever ... I don't think there is really a need for you to manually change it every time you log in unless you're in war. A lot of people don't log off, they just quit, so such a function would never work well. [09:58] <Eggy-afk> <HammerBA> About the NooB example I gave eariler- if the Faction mates take your city back, and you haven't surrendered to them, you can then take it back from your faction mates? And what would the cost be to take your city back in the allotted time, no matter WHO owns it during the 1 Nevyear? I am worried about the level 0 "pirates" like IAL, 1st Rydes, etc. that may get to survive and prosper at the expense of luck and timi [09:59] <Randy> ok say a NOOB hits a level 2, takes his only city (units were elsewhere) and forces a surrender. Then yes, friends of the victim my retake the city immediately if they desire, and after the 3 day lock-out period the original guy can retake it. Ok I see the problem here! [10:00] <Randy> people can easily "surrender" and then get their stuff back through a third party, and be immune to attack from the original aggressor for 1 nevyear! Clearly that is a problem. [10:00] <Randy> there are a few ways to handle that, i'll choose something both simple and effective, but I want to consider all options before making a decision. I'll get back to you on that at a later date. [10:01] <Eggy-afk> <Logres|work> perhaps a coded restriction on a particular zone following the surrender? [10:01] <Randy> that is one possibility, although not my favorite if it can be avoided as there is potential from abuse there as well [10:01] <Eggy-afk> <Huey[FC][ST]> whats happens to units that were fighting when the surrender triggers? [10:01] <Eggy-afk> <Logres|work> to prevent the original owner from re-taking it << an addendum to his ? [10:02] <Randy> they are instantly removed from battle. all battles end without further shots being fired. Units that don't own the zone are instantly removed to the nearest friendly zone [10:02] <Randy> Logres|work thats a great addendum, that may be the best solution. [10:03] <Eggy-afk> <flea> so....you keep the zones you conqured? [10:03] <Randy> correct. if your enemy surrenders you keep all zones you took from him (at least until a 3rd party enters the picture) [10:04] <Eggy-afk> <Iceman66> that's my point... i don't surrender at all. why should those of us who do not wish to surrender be forced to by the system? i'm not bitching, just trying to understand here [10:04] <Eggy-afk> we were having a discussion [10:04] <Eggy-afk> so maybe you can explain........he doesn't want to surrender [10:04] <Eggy-afk> ever [10:05] <Randy> there are a few points. first, it allows people to "win" a war, at least for a while, and be free from constant badgering by a clearly defeated enemy for a nevyear [10:06] <Randy> it also prevents overnight destruction .. i realize you don't want that personally ... so you are a definately impacted here [10:06] <Randy> as you have to be sure that its hard to kill 50% of your pop+bv in 3 days [10:06] <Eggy-afk> iceman says that's why we have BP'ers [10:06] <Randy> which for small and mid level empires, can be difficult in the face of a large gangbang [10:06] <Randy> its true, i can imagine this only "hurting" those active war players who never wish to surrender [10:07] <Randy> although it will be good for your enemies who clearly beat you but don't want to put up with the jeep-a-day retailiations you may be able to afford [10:07] <Randy> i think, really, what this will do for those in your shoes is force some level or defense [10:08] <Randy> if you have 100k bv and 50k pop ... well, losing the 50k pop won't hurt you, so you'll have to actively defend your units to keep from surrendering [10:09] <Randy> if you have 50kbv and 100k pop .. well, if you don't defend ANY of the pop you're screwed, but that is DEFINATELY ok with me. That poor populace, being abandonded by their cowardly empire, of course they will demand an immediate surrender. [10:09] <Eggy-afk> ok that was last of the questions and or 'suggestions" [10:09] <Randy> great :) [10:09] <Randy> lets call this done then. [10:10] <Eggy-afk> <Masashi[LVL10_for_sale]> I see a problem in surrendering, morale and income hit, trying to rebuild and most of the time paying hughe ammounts of money for a CF or reparations the attacker wants or he will attack with his next faction after 72 or whatever hours [10:10] <Eggy-afk> one last one [10:10] <Eggy-afk> damnit Masashi[LVL10_for_sale] [10:10] <Eggy-afk> :P [10:10] <Randy> thanks everyone for listening and for your questions and input. 2 obvious changes have come out of this today, plus a few more points i need to refine before going forward. [10:11] <Randy> The whole point of the surrender is there is no need for reparations. If they hit with another faction in 72 hours, you'll get locked for 6 days next after 10%, thats not so bad [10:11] <Eggy-afk> <mattbuck> What about empires already wiped out? [10:11] <Eggy-afk> <mattbuck> i have a problem with a lvl0 who keeps popping up [10:11] <Randy> and definately not worth paying reparations over. [10:11] <Randy> mattbuck i imagine he'll surrender as soon as you kill his units each time [10:12] <Randy> ok, i'm going to get back to work. Thanks again for the discussion and Q/A. I hope you learned from it, as i did.